Question:
Defending my statements. Re. dana?
amancalledchuda
2007-09-17 05:05:25 UTC
Global Warming Alarmist dana recently asked two questions suggesting that GW sceptics (“deniers” as he insists on calling them) are ignorant and make unsupported claims. (See… http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgOT8_D0rVyOQscQmCm1i6kgBgx.;_ylv=3?qid=20070915114539AALKDM0&show=7#profile-info-20f3291b9320a302e9070bf55325531daa and… http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AsnaXgA5ZRZt6X2rPr60moggBgx.;_ylv=3?qid=20070915140412AAXC2h9&show=7#profile-info-20f3291b9320a302e9070bf55325531daa )

In answering those questions, I pointed out that dana himself was just as guilty of this, and cited as proof the fact that he has quoted the flawed Mann hockey stick graph and claimed that James Hansen’s 1988 guesses of how much temperature would rise by 2000 were “extremely accurate”.

Dana didn’t respond to me in the questions themselves, but subsequently contacted me direct with the following…
21 answers:
3DM
2007-09-17 16:37:46 UTC
Good job, chuda.



I've been through this bogus Hansen prediction a couple of times with Dana. The questions, and subsequently my answers are nowhere to be found. Imagine that...



Just like a stopped clock is still correct twice a day, let's not be too eager to congratulate Mr. Hansen. As you, chuda, I believe a rolling prediction is useless. Let's compare Hansen's predictions to the last finalized year - 2006. We'll even give them home court advantage by using the beloved and oft cited wiki instrumental graph instead of satellite numbers:



Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png



Hansen:

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/edu/gwdebate/00fig1.gif



As you see, in 2006, the instrumental record shows an anomaly of slightly over 0.4C. When you compare Hansen's predictions for 2006, you get this:



A (most dire) ~1.0C, a 0.8C jump from 1988, 4 times (400%) the actual jump of ~0.2C.



B (Hansen's "preferred") ~0.8C, a 0.6C jump, 3x (300%) the actual jump.



C (CO2 emissions frozen at 2000 levels) ~0.7C, a 0.5C jump, 2.5x (250%) the actual jump.



But, maybe I'm not being generous enough. The Wiki graph show 2006 as slightly above 0.4C and 1988 as slightly below 0.2C...so let's say that the actual jump was 0.25C (super generous!) We get:



A 300% off

B 240% off

C 200% off



I don't know what people consider "ballpark figures", but if your ballpark is the Grand Canyon, then yeah, Hanson MAY be close.



Just how generous am I being? Well, if I instead used Hansen's actual numbers from 1988 it would give us a starting anomaly of ~0.35C giving us this:



A 1600% off

B 1200% off

C 1000% off



Or even more so, since Hansen himself submitted this 1998 evidence of the "accuracy" of his predictions, then he was, in effect, standing by it's post-1998 accuracy. As those predictions were entirely opposite the observed temperatures through 2006, the predictions would be invalidated.



Even if we bent the rules and used the arbitrary 0.0C baseline of the anomaly, we would still get extremely large errors:



A 150%

B 100%

C 75%



Anyone who wants to frame Hansen's prediction in gold is totally welcome. You may be able to trade it in on some Enron stock...
Bob
2007-09-17 07:43:32 UTC
I won't talk about Hansen's predictions - I don't know enough about that, nor do I care much. One guys opinion just isn't a big deal. I'll stick with the data.



But the hockey stick was basically correct. The historical data was overly smoothed (averaged). That obliterated both the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. Bad idea. But the basic conclusion, that we're unusually warm, even compared to the Medieval Warm Period, was affirmed by the National Academy of Sciences when they reviewed the hockey stick.



Short version, the fact that some lumps were smoothed out in the historical data doesn't affect the big swing up in the measured data. The big swing up is real, and large, even if you don't smooth the historical data as aggressively.



Since then people have used less aggressive statistical methods, and developed graphs which clearly show the MWP and the LIA. And that also show that what's going on now is unusual, and that we've exceeded the MWP.



http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:2000_Year_Temperature_Comparison_png



(amancalledchuda - co2science distorts the data. I took a sloppy run at saying that and 3DM appropriately had me for lunch. I'll have a question about the MWP that will discuss it more rigorously later this week)



Salomon talks about the NASA data. The change involved was tiny. It amounted to less than a tenth of a degree for the US. It didn't affect the warming trend except at the one year where it was applied.



Worldwide it was completely insignificant, about 0.001 C. Which is why the media (and the scientific community) aren't making a big deal of it - it isn't a big deal. The fact that deniers are trying to make a big deal about it shows that they have no good arguments.



EDIT - Look at the graph I linked to. It clearly shows the MWP and the LIA. And that we're now above the MWP. That's real, not a statistical artifact. What happens if you use Mann's smoothing is not relevant to that argument, although the NAS said Mann's smoothed graph was basically real, contrary to what deniers claim..
Dana1981
2007-09-17 09:02:25 UTC
My intention was for you to defend yourself via email (which is why I emailed you), but if you want to do this in public, I suppose that's fine too. Not as easy to go back and forth, but whatever.



The answer to your first question is apparently technically yes. Graph b in my first link is derived from a Mann paper, however the reason I linked it was simply to show the size of the error bars. I did not use it to discuss the MWP, which is in fact cut off on the particular graph I illustrated anyway, as it only goes back to 1000 AD.



Basically it was the only graph I could find in a quick search which showed error bars. So technically your claim was correct, but basically it was wrong. Anytime I discuss temperatures over the past 1000 years I use the 10 temperature reconstruction graph. As a matter of fact, I used it in the very answer you linked.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png



Your second claim is wrong. Hansen's predictions were indeed very accurate, especially given the uncertainty of carbon emissions post-1988. The fact that 1998 was an anomalously hot year doesn't make his predictions any less accurate. The planet has continued to warm from '90s levels:



http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/2005/ann/global-blended-temp-pg.gif



In fact you can see an update of his predictions vs. actual temperature measurements up to about 2005 in Figure 3 here:



http://www.logicalscience.com/skeptic_arguments/models-dont-work.html



As you can see, they remain spot-on.



Since you have no response to my answer, I created a new question about it.



https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20070917133123AAXOAXN
Anders
2007-09-17 06:24:55 UTC
amancallechuca,

I'll let Dana answer this himself.





afratta437,



"trevor and bob have been caught in similar situations."



"when the truth is discovered, it is ignored and they carry the same half truths as 100% fact."



"real, half facts, distortions, or fabrication are all fair game, as the outcome justifies the means."



"i know I've been in positions such as this before and refused to participate.



how can people feel good about themselves and their work doing this?"



Lol, I think unjust comes to mind. I see you much rather address this then their scientific claims. Too bad your Q&A's are private otherwise I would see for some of these situations in your past. I have a hunch they would appear.





Salomón II,

"Unfortunately, global warming alarmists are following the typical path of all political ideologues, which is to defend their pet doctrines tooth and nail, without any regard for truth, history, and common sense."



Why do you use one country as a determent when it comes to global warming? You are purposedly skewing this issue by stating that global warming is inaccurate just because one country had warmer temperatures in the recent past. This is why it is called "climate change", because there will be different effects on the climate. Some areas will be cooling, some warming. The overall effect, which is the global one, is an increase in temperatures. In how high regard do you hold the truth?
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SomeGuy
2007-09-17 06:50:19 UTC
Ah, cool. So now that we've established what you =weren't= talking about, I think it's time to move on to what you =were= : p



First though, I have to defend my graph, which I've become rather fond of. First, I honestly have no idea why the smoothed plot shows 2001 so high. I simply plotted the anomalies (blue line), then smoothed them using a five year moving average to make the trend more visible. The red line is what came out. It probably was mostly due to my pathetic spreadsheet skills. But I'm sure more smoothing would bring it back down again, I just didn't want to waste the time to do it.



Second, the smoothed plot doesn't show anything past 2002 is for exactly the reason I mentioned above. I used a five year moving average to smooth it, which means I can't complete the plot until next year (if I had a mind to). But even a cursory glance over the unsmoothed graph clearly shows a warming trend.



http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k111/EnragedPirate/?action=view¤t=tempgraph.png



Anyway, I think this issue was pretty much cleared up following the posting of Dana's comparison of the updated '88 projections. They seem to confirm perfectly with the trend. And remember, the trend is all we're interested in here. Hanson couldn't possibly have predicted the large year to year natural variation. I mean, you and I sitting here nitpicking individual years and puzzling over why they might have been off is fun and all, but I assure you, we haven't got the foggiest idea what we're talking about.



That said, I agree with you that Hanson's projections are mostly irrelevant now anyway. Our understanding of the physical processes behind the climate has improved by leaps and bounds in the twenty years since Hanson made his projections. Physical models of climate are now much, much more accurate than they were in 1988. I daresay his projections are kind of ancient history now.
2007-09-17 07:29:34 UTC
Some recent hard facts about James Hansen, NASA and global warming.



Data from NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) now show the hottest year since 1880 was 1934. Nineteen-ninety-eight dropped to second, while the third hottest year was way back in 1921. Indeed, four of the 10 hottest years were in the 1930s, while only three were in the past decade.



The real 15 hottest years are spread over seven decades. Eight occurred before atmospheric carbon dioxide began its sharp rise; seven occurred afterwards.



Many global warming fanatics have pointed to NASA as proof that their concerns about a warming planet are justified. They have repeatedly cited the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), whose director, James Hansen, has asserted that nine of the 10 warmest years in history have occurred since 1995, with 1998 the warmest.



When NASA was confronted with evidence provided by Climate Audit, a blog run by Stephen McIntyre devoted to auditing the statistical methods and data used in historical reconstructions of past climate data, it reversed itself. Without the fanfare used to hype the global warming fanaticism it had earlier supported, NASA now says four of the top 10 years of high temperatures are from the 1930s. Several previously selected "warm" years - 2000, 2002, 2003 and 2004 - fell behind 1900.



GISS now says its previous claim that 1998 was the warmest year in American history is no longer valid. The warmest year was 1934.



Has any of this new information changed the minds of the global warming fundamentalists? Nope. Neither has much of it seen the light of day in the mainstream media, which continue to carry stories where seldom is heard an alternative word and the skies are polluted all day.



The truth is what really should matter to all of us. Unfortunately, global warming alarmists are following the typical path of all political ideologues, which is to defend their pet doctrines tooth and nail, without any regard for truth, history, and common sense.
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John Sol
2007-09-17 13:20:03 UTC
You've lost me mate, what are you on about, hockey sticks? I leave the science to the scientists, how is it you have the time and patience for this.



The scientists are paid by governments and big business so that thier scientific boffins can translate and advise on policy and business plans, and then the decision makers take us plebs into account. Yes, that's where we come into the equation



As for this sort of discussion, you'll not persuade each other, on that you must agree, nor will you persuade anyone else. people recognize bad natured hectoring and wasted enenergy when they see them,
Taganan
2007-09-17 19:08:23 UTC
Good show, amancalledchuda, hold their toes to the fire and keep them honest. I accept Climate Change as something which occurs without Man's influence. I feel much of the GW panic is purely for political gain, for power and tax money. That is why they throw labels at those scientists with opposing views, calling them "deniers, ignorant, dishonest, sell-outs, non-scientists" and refusing to hire them, provide research money, to allow them to publish.



Yes, we do produce too much pollution, but I doubt it has more than a minuscule effect, since one volcano can produce more greenhouse gasses than Man has in all of history. Our CO2 production is nothing compared to Nature. The CO2 panic is also politically driven to get power, make money and raise taxes.
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avail_skillz
2007-09-17 15:05:06 UTC
Ok, now that you, with your PhD, have debunked every scientist that is a proponent of man-made global warming, over a silly hockey stick graph that was meant more for explanation to laymen, rather than climate scientists, how about we reduce harmful emissions just for the heck of it?
Keith P
2007-09-17 14:50:11 UTC
Well, since the "hockey stick" is completely valid (the criticisms of McIntyre and McKitrick were shown to be either erroneous or inconsequential years ago), and since Hansen's self-described "most likely" scenario from 1988 has proven to be right on the money, I'd say Dana1981 is right on the substance and you were wrong to criticize him.
eric c
2007-09-17 14:44:19 UTC
forget about proxy studies, which method is the best. Historically, the MWP was a real phenomena. How can such a colony survive if the temperatures were colder than what it is today?

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/
afratta437
2007-09-17 06:16:05 UTC
unfortunately, this is the modus operandi of these "scientists".



trevor and bob have been caught in similar situations.



when the truth is discovered, it is ignored and they carry the same half truths as 100% fact.



this is clearly not "objective science" as they claim. it IS an agenda.



honest, objective science would correct the flaws and retest the theory.



if the theory didn't hold up, it is modified or dismissed, as the FACTS warrant.



today's science is different.



it starts with an agenda.



then theories are created,

and then facts to back it up.



real, half facts, distortions, or fabrication are all fair game, as the outcome justifies the means.



i know i've been in positions such as this before and refused to participate.



how can people feel good about themselves and their work doing this?

----------------------------------------------------------

edit









"Lol, I think unjust comes to mind. I see you much rather address this then their scientific claims. Too bad your Q&A's are private....."

-anders



i'd LOVE to show my answers. unfortunately the enviro-thugs use this list to vote down my statements.



i could say the sky is normally blue and have four thumbs down.



(the same thing your type do to scientists that don't agree with you defame, belittle and try to bully into submission.)

================================



"......otherwise I would see for some of these situations in your past. I have a hunch they would appear." -anders



uh, no you wouldn't. EVER!



unlike most of the leftist here, i stand by ALL my statements and if i'm wrong,

I AM MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT!



i don't need to make up stuff to decieve people.



none of you will be able to truthfully make that claim.
Dr Jello
2007-09-17 06:26:46 UTC
For some facts will never matter. Their mind is made up. Those that he accuses of being deniers are just looking for objective science and not looking to be a follower of a consensus.



Those that seek a consensus typically are followers, they rarely lead.



I've always wondered about Dana. Here's a guy in his mid 20's and believes global warming is true. So instead of putting his education to good use by inventing the next generation engine, or helping reduce emissions in industry, he works to prove what he already believes.



I think he isn't really sure but has spent far too much for his degree to say what he knows is true. That global warming is natural occurrence of the Sun.
Paul H
2007-09-17 06:34:35 UTC
The flawed "Hockey Stick"? Weird, last time I checked it was endorsed by the NAS-NRC panel that reviewed it:



http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=11676



And it's strange too, because if the "Hockey Stick" is flawed, why do all of the other temperature proxy records agree with it?



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/2000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png



Every other proxy record has produced this similar pattern ie. anomalous rate of change and magnitude of warming inthe latter 20th C compared to the remainder of the millennia. The Mann Hockey Stick is the medium blue line.



Hansen's 1988 model was accurate:



http://www.giss.nasa.gov/edu/gwdebate/



The only way you can arrive at the conclusion that it isn't is by misrepresenting either the model results or the temperature record. Funnily enough, both strategies have been attempted by denialists, then subsequently exposed for the fraud they were, and then, of course, recycled by denialists posting in internet forums.



Patrick Michaels misrepresented Hansen's model results to the US senate (detailed in the NASA link above), and climate audit commenter (and occasional poster) Willis Eschenbach misrepresented the temperature record, detailed here:



http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/08/climate_fraudit.php



EDIT:



Interesting, I've just read amancalledfchud's supposed "de-bunking" of Hansen's model work. Initially I saw your point about 1998, but in your response you go over the top and miss a few basic facts:



"It *should* stop in 2000 to coincide with the date of Hansen’s estimates, but does it? I think we’d all have to agree that it doesn’t, in fact, go all the way to 2000. So why not? It’s because they stop the observed temperature line in the very hot year of 1998 – the hottest year in about the last 70. Why do they stop the line there? Because after 1998 temperature suddenly dropped like a rock, to a level that is close to, or perhaps even lower, than the 1988 temperature."



The temperature in 1999, after 1988, did not drop to a temperature equivalent to 1988, or lower, and no year since then has done this as you claim:



http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif



As you can see, the data shows that 1988 had a temperature anomaly of ~0.2oC, and 1999 had a temperature anomaly of ~0.33oC. But comparing single years yo each other is pretty meaningless. More importantly, the trend beyond 1998 is not one of falling temperatures as amancalledchud would have us believe, no, the temperature trend is resoundingly upwards:



http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig_E.lrg.gif



My earlier link to Deltoid continues the comparison between the data and the model, and there is still good agreement:



http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/08/climate_fraudit.php



In my link to the NASA page discussing Hansen's model you will see that it was written in January 1999. Therefore, how on Earth could Hansen have compared temperatures in 2000 whilst writing in 1999? Unless he has a time machine you need to retract your claims regarding Dana / Hansen and claims made against Hansen in earlier posts.



EDIT:



Thank you for making the correction with regard to 1988/89. I have to agree with you, but what is your point? I would not expect Hansen' model to have predicted the El Nino in 1998, and, thus, I would not expect it to have shown 1998 to be a very hot year. Hansen's model still captures the trend, which was my point. If you look at Deltoid's version of the graph you can see the extended comparison.



I strongly disagree with you that "*everyone*" said A was most likely. Going directly to the primary source it is possible to see that Hansen explicitly stated that B was most likely. He states this in his 1988 paper. As it turned out B was pretty close to it until 2000 and then C is was closer. This is apparently due to the decrease in development in the USSR at the end of the cold war. Comparing the forcings between the model and reality shows that the agreement goes beyond simnply the temperature. Have a look at this:



http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/hansens-1988-projections/



With regard to your earlier criticisms against Hansen (in the other thread) these seem pretty baseless in light of the revelation that the graph was created in 1999 and that more up-to-date versions do exist and show a continuing agreement between model and data. Your criticism relied upon the fact that Hansen had apparently "engineered" the graph to end in 1998, false. The insinuation was that further comparison would invalidate the model, false, as deltoid shows. The substantive criticism against your critique of Hansen still stands.



On Hockey Sticks, why, if Mann's HS is so wrong do all of the other proxy records support their result?



Also, why, whenever anyone mentions the red-noise to HS statisitcal model do they completely fail to mention the magnitude of the induced HS? Anyone would assume that it invalidated the result given all the fuss. Yet, if you examine McIntyre's GRL paper it is clear that these red noise HSs only have a warming magnitude of hundredths of a degree. So, yes, this is a substantive criticism, but does it actually invalidate the result? Hardly, given that the observed change in temperatures in the Mann paper is on the order of 0.8oC fromthe start of the industrial revolution. This is hardly of cosmic significance. I never stated that there weren't errors in Mann's work, but the interesting question should be one of "does it change the result?"



On surface temperature networks, you should have a look at the latest comparison between GISS-temp and the supposedly golden sites (as selected by Watts and co.):



http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/09/cherry_picking_confirmed.php



On the subject of satellite temperature trends, which dataset are you going to use? RSS actually shows a greater warming trend compared to the surface stations. I'm not sure it's possible to call the race between UAH and RSS.



Just to clarify. Drawing a line between two years and calling it a trend is not a normal procedure - it's idiotic. It is much more common to compare decadal trends ie. 0.15oC per decade by fitting a trend line through all of the data. I notice that you quoted three temperature shifts in your reply to enraged parrot and I wouldn't recommend that. It's more typical in climatology to take thirty year average to derive a trend. This way the bumps and humps due to natural variability get evened out so as not bias the results either way. My point is that if you could get the numbers and compare trends on that Deltoid Hansen graph you would see pretty good agreement in the trends in the obs and in B and C. Look at the real climate post, it does this comparison and it is right up to date. Talk about trends fitted to all of the data and stop cherry picking start and end points. Your analysis method is completely sensitive to the start and end criteria. Without checking you assumed that this was standard procedure, but it isn't for the very reasons I've just highlighted. The method of using trend lines fitted to all of the data is not sensitive to the start and end point, which is why scientists use that method.



OK, I've just read more of your reply to parrot. We've got two sources now which have made a more complete comparison beyond Hansen' NASA link and Dana' link. You've stated that you expect the model / data comparison to breakdown beyond this point and that this is the reason you believe that Dana's link doesn't make the comparison. Look at the two links that I have provided (real climate and Deltoid) because they show that your hunch is wrong. I think it far more likely that Dana's link is just outdated and the owner simply hasn't gotten round to updating it - fair enough. Updating this graph isn't going to make Hansen's model look wrong though, in fact it just further empahsises how right he was.
Vasanthkumar Mysoremath
2007-09-17 05:41:37 UTC
Stop the arguments before global warming destroys the world. Let us try to do something instead of blah, blah, blah
2007-09-17 09:46:56 UTC
INTERESTING question?


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