Question:
What's the difference between global warming deniers and Creationists/Intelligent Design proponents?
anonymous
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
What's the difference between global warming deniers and Creationists/Intelligent Design proponents?
Fourteen answers:
Baccheus
2010-04-05 08:46:29 UTC
Anthony Watts also endorsed teaching Creationism in schools during his unsuccessful run for School Board in Chico.
anonymous
2010-04-05 08:42:24 UTC
None whatsoever. They both exist to promote an outdated world-view.
strpenta
2010-04-05 09:25:28 UTC
I think the only difference is AGW denial is more recent. Other than that, their common purpose seems to be 'willful ignorance' ;-)
Richard E
2010-04-06 06:47:50 UTC
I do think there is an important difference. Intelligent design theory does not produce a falsifiable hypothesis, it just says that life is to complex to understand. By introducing an omnipotent creator, (or intelligent agent, as you call it) ID proponents put the process of creation into a black box they are not willing to look into. To paraphrase a famous physicist: the problem with ID is that it is not even wrong.



AGW deniers, from different plumage,do produce falsifiable thesis's. "CO2 is just a trace gas, it can't have any effect", "volcanoes produce more CO2", "AGW is made up by communists", "AGW is caused by cosmic rays" etc. are all perfectly falsifiable theories. Most skeptic arguments actually have been falsified. I don't know what you would call the perseverance to hang to theories that are proven to be false. being misinformed? stupidity? willfully ignorant?



I do however agree that there appears to be a large group of people in western societies that do not have the faintest clue about the way knowledge about our world is created. The result is that politicians advocate policies that sound right to some people, but are not based on emperical evidence. Sometimes there is no reason to believe that the policy works. Sometimes there is no reason to believe the problem is actually a problem at all. And most of the times, ofcourse, there are large problems that are completely ignored. So that's why half the world is in a fuss about gay marriage and "rogue states" whilst climate change, species getting extinct, and resources being depleted are largely off the agenda.
David M
2010-04-05 10:28:41 UTC
With regard to Creationist/ Intelligent Design proponents: Design implies a Designer. The people who object to Creationism, say that the geological record indicates that Evolution took place over millions of years, and we evolved from the first single celled organism to the human species. The Bible says that Creation took place in 6 days and on the seventh day God rested. The word that is translated in the Creation account as "day" also has the meaning of "age". This is a much less common usage that we also find in English. This meaning is used to refer to historical periods that are characterized by the social, political, religious or philosphical condition of the time period. Common usage in history include the Age of Reason, the Age of Revolution, and the Age of Reformation. This meaning applied to the Creation accout would result in 6 Ages that are characterized by the species created. These 6 Ages are most commonly lumped together and called the Age of Creation. What we are really taking about here is what is know as the First Cause. Both Evolution and Creationism proceed from simple to complex. So did God Create everything over a span of (an undefined) time (Age), or did it all happen by chance as slowly evolved into the human species? We have here two possible answers that fit the timeline of biological development from simple to complex. We need to look for additional data or infromation here to be able to choose between these two alternatives. There are numerous promises in the Bible. Many of them are writtten in an If you ....then I will format. Find one you like!!!!!



As for global warming deniers, that is not me. Global Warming is happening at least right now, that is beyond dispute. There are more factors to consider than just the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere or the amount of carbon dioxide emissions going into the atmosphere. First of all there is the Carbon Cycle which tends to keep the carbon in the environment in balance. The Carbon Cycle is overwhelmed by the emissions of carbon dioxide that go into the atmosphere, this why the concentration of carbon dioxide in air is increasing. The biological system of the Carbon Cycle cannot keep up with the output of carbon dioxide emissions. The Carbon Cycle is also compromised by the environmental pollutants that interfere with the process of photosynthesis. One example is acid rain that results when sulfur dioxide is produced from burning coal that contains sulfur. The sulfur dioxide is taken up by the water that comes down as rain. This acid rain interfere with the gowth of crops, trees, and other plants and lessens the natural biologigal systems to make use of carbon dioxide. This increases the carbon dioxide in the air.



There are other factors also that contribute to warming. One is the activity of the Sun. This activity has been increasing since about 1900, and there is a general slow upward trend. We do not know however how long this upward trend will continue, but it does seem to be happening right now. There is also the problem of waste heat that goes into the environment. This waste heat comes from a variety of sources and includes industies, businesses, utilities, and even homes. One of the major sources of waste heat are the nuclear plants. While it is commonly noted that nuclear plants produce no greenhouse gases, almost nothing is said about the waste heat that goes into the rivers, lakes and oceans of this world. This heat comes from water that is heat when the nuclear reactor core is cooled by this cooling water. Once this water has cooled the reactor core and become hot it is discharged in to the environment: a nearby river, lake or ocean. This is"new heat" that has been created by destruction of matter in the nuclear reactor. This "new heat" has not existed since the time of the elements of our planet first formed. There are also some other additional factors that need to be mentioned. A report by NOAA, repoted the discovery of hot springs in the Arctic Ocean. This is just one aspect of vulcanism that adds heat to the enviroment.



All these factors can change on a daily basis. Trends however can be determined for the near future. It is very difficult to know the longterm trends because of the secondary factors that can affect these factors. One such secondary factor for your consideration, is the distance of the moon from the Earth. We all know about the effect the moon has on tides, but it also has an effect to a lesser degree on hot magna within the Earth.
anonymous
2016-04-14 05:55:10 UTC
Climate refers to the sum total of weather conditions over a large area for long period of time. Whereas weather refers to the state of the atmosphere over an area at any point of time.
anonymous
2010-04-05 17:44:34 UTC
No difference, both ignore the facts in deference to a corrupt and false ideology.
Jeff M
2010-04-05 13:12:15 UTC
CO2: I agree with many of your points, just not the outcome. You are correct in stating that no science will ever disprove or prove the existence of God because, by definition, God is supernatural while science studies the natural world. Perhaps your God is using evolution as a means of driving change. I mean the entire universe works on cause and effect. All that needed to be done is put that original cause into motion and all the effects that would lead from that original cause, meaning one on top of another, would eventually bring us to where we are today.



The precambrian explosion was not an 'explosion' in any sense of the word. It happened over thousands and probably even millions of years. There have been many fossil finds that occurred prior to the 'explosion that were genetically different. The precambrian 'explosion' occurred most likely because this is the period when sexual reproduction began. This would lead to a much greater rate of evolution and change. There are not a tremendous amount of holes in the fossil record. punctuated equilibrium is not an alternative to evolution. Punctuated equilibrium actually uses evolution only it theorizes that changes occur on quick local scales rather than in long time periods. However, both of the theories can be in effect. Picture this: Bears with long fur make up 5% of a population and bears with split end fur make up another 5% while bears with short fur make up the rest. A massive volcanic eruption occurs lifting ash and debris high enough in the atmosphere to be taken up by global winds blocking out the Sun for a long time and the world gets a lot colder. Most of the bears with shorter fur die because they can not retain heat as well as those with long fur or fur with split ends. The percentage of all types of bears, in the end, is roughly 33% of the total population. This would speed up the process of the population as a whole to gain one of the mutated genes that caused the two types of fur and the probability would increase. Quick change would occur as a result.



Recent advancements have allowed researchers to produce the basic building blocks of life, sugars and amino acids, from inorganic material. While it is still not definitively known exactly how life originated on this planet, some even speculate that panspermia was a main driving force, there have been many different attempts and successes in showing how the components of life could chemically evolve.



Edit: Note that I am not talking about the Miller-Urey experiment. That experiment was conducted almost 60 years ago. Many advances have been made since then and many alternate tests have been performed. Sorry I can't find many of the articles I've read concerning the recent tests as they are mainly in my RSS feeds and have since been deleted but I'm sure talkorigins.org would have something on it.
Author Unknown
2010-04-05 10:28:03 UTC
You seem surprised by this Dana.

Too bad I missed Nova.
Facts Matter
2010-04-05 09:07:27 UTC
The tactics are very similar.



Both go on endlessly about real (Piltdown man) or imaginary ("Climategate") deceptions.



Both make plausible appeals to common sense, misapplied because we are dealing with things beyond common experience (but the eye is so complicated! but surely the planet is too big for us to make any difference to it!).



Both present pseudoscientific rebuttals of well-established science (Watts with his claims that temperature records are unreliable, the creationists with their claims that radiometric dating is unreliable)



Both are part of the core identity beliefs of the so-called Christian Right, with endorsements from all the usual suspects, ranging from Sarah Palin through Rush Limbaugh and Phyllis Shaffly to Ann Coulter.



And both appear in attempts by legislators to dictate (in the name of freedom of expression!) what goes on in the classroom.



The biggest difference is the enormous amount of money devoted to promoting AGW "scepticism", which makes the few millions behind bodies like the Creation Museum or the Discovery Institute look like peanuts.
beinghere2002
2010-04-05 09:43:13 UTC
None. They are both based on " psuedoscience" seeing as their thinktanks tend to be funded by Exxon, or the Fantic Christian Right,. "Intelligent Agent" is just their be all answer when they can't maintain a rational dialogue, because they rarely manage too have the brains to acquire legitmate degrees from credible post-secondary institutes.



But their fanaticism is scary--their fear and insecrurities in dealing with the Acdemic world is a major motivation in their extremism...Very much like the Islamic extremist pyschology...fear of anything new, threaten by anything they don't understand, low self esteem due to knowing they just aren't smart enough to deal with the rapid changes in an advance civilization...they are the barbarians at the gates.
Richard
2010-04-05 10:54:38 UTC
Let’s see we have flawed data from NASA (GISS) we have CRU's chief Phil Jones and programmer Ian "Harry" Harris, both of whom denigrated the quality of the CRU data. "No uniform data integrity, it's just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they're found. This whole project is SUCH A MESS,"



CRU admits that tree ring proxy data is flawed, and they admit they don’t have the original data sets, which means nobody can check their work.



We only found out about the data sets from NASA because they FINALLY released the data after sitting on a Freedom of Information request for over 2 years. We have CRU e-mails where they talked about deleting data, only to find out they tossed out the original data sets, refusing FOI request, breaking the law in the process. We only found about those because someone “hacked” the servers.



So skeptics have plenty to point too, unlike Creationists/Intelligent design, if anything those pushing AGW are like the Creationists/Intelligent design people. They point to the IPCC and say they are right and we won’t listen to anyone who says anything different.
anonymous
2010-04-05 09:43:23 UTC
First it depends on your view of Intelligent Design. While it has been used primarily to introduce religion into the school systems via psuedo-science. While some have used it as a repackaged creationism, the actual idea behind intelligent design is that there are many factors seen in nature such as boltzman's constant, that inherently defy any explaination beyond that of a designer or infinite universes. Taken apart from current events, I would have said that intelligent design should not be taught in science and is strictly a philosophical viewpoint. Unfortunately, physicists like to pretend like the philosophy that they do is actually science. Because of this, some physicists have posited the infinite universes idea. Like intelligent design, this idea has no method by which to test it and is completely unfalsifiable. It is, however, considered science, wherein lies the problem. While both the infinite universe or multi-verse idea and Intelligent design are unfalsifiable and have no supporting scientific evidence, Intelligent design at least has some backing in the realm of experiences in the human condition. Therefore it would seem to me that Intelligent design is superior. That being said, you either teach neither or you teach both views. I would prefer treaching both in philosophy class.



The only thing I see in common with the debate that you mention is that once again physicists take entirely too many liberties with what constitutes evidence. The entirety of this debate has to do with idiots proclaiming assinine viewpoints like evolution disproves God. That's ridiculous. Nothing within science either diproves or proves the existence of God. Science is nothing more than the study of naturally occurring phenomenon via natural explanations. It is not truth, but simply one way to study and find truth. In much the same way physicists today have shown that man may have caused up to 0.4 degree of warming from 1950 to 2006, but when they claim that this means that the earth will warm by 7 degrees in the next 100 years, and pretend like this is a fact, they have demonstrated a lack of scientific understanding or absurd arrogance. Furhter, when AGWers call us "deniers" because we "deny the future" as if the future can be easily foretold by tarot cards or computer models, they too demonstrate their lack of scientific understanding or absurd arrogance.



As for Evolution, I think it is on the right track and that at some point a better explanation will come that also uses a survival of the fittest and explains some of the problems still seen in the precambrian explosion and such. The great thing about the creationists, that nobody tends to recognize, is that they keep the evolutionists honest. I disagree with their viewpoints, but there are a tremendous amount of holes in fossil record. There are some glaring problems with evolution that has caused some other theories like punctuated equilibrium to become popular. I wonder if the evolutionists would be so diligent in their research if they did not beleive that some creationists would come and try to poke as many holes in their theories as possible? As for their viewpoint on abiogenesis, I agree, we have nothing but a hodge-podge of hypotheses that all have inherent weakness that can not be easily explained away, not to mention the fact that we ahve no evidence that any of them actually could occur, let alone has occurred. Such a monstrocity should not be taught to children, evolution, has much more support, is actually a theory and should be taught to children.



It should also be noted, that for the pautry amount of money that goes into the Creation museum and such, they do an amazing job of finding every issue with evolution. If our governemnt worked that efficiently, we would have no debt.



One other thing to note is that everything seems to have an antithesis. For example, we have a lot of ignorant posters here that seem to think that science has"proven" everything and that their viewpoints are right and all others are stupid. The truth that they lack the very understanding of the science that they worship is matched nicely with the bible thumpers and other religious zealots. They to think that all other viewpoints are stupid, they to lack the simple understanding of their own religion that teaches judge not lest ye be judged and love. In much the same way people like you have an antithesis. While you pretend to understand science and have a "consensus", the ideas that you endorse are much more alarmist than the general "consensus". The other AGWers who act as if the world and mankind will end have to have and antithesis of the world not ending and CO2 causing no problems at all or helping the world. Such is life. The fact that both sides are wrong never seems to occur to those debating.



Jeff M,

First I agree about punctuated equilibrium, the point being that evolution as a theory has much fine-tuning left to do and until the fine-tuning is done, it will not be a complete theory in that it is currently rather useless for prediction purposes, the punctuated equilibrium is more of a fine tuning of the theory than an overall change, but to look at evolution as complete would just be fool-hardy. Just as Einstein correction to the TOG was not a complete ditching of Newton's TOG, but a fine-tuning.



As for the other statement of having created the basic building blocks of life (amino acids and sugars) is true, But one should realize how little that actually means. First the lab set up made use of cold trapping, something you would never see in nature. Second, while it was a step towards understanding the process, it was a small step. Amino acids and sugars being the building blocks of life are like saying that steel and wood are the building blocks of the empire state building. Its all well and good for a start, but frequently I find the claim to understanding and victory to be foolish. The point is, that we do not traditionally teach hypotheses to children. Now miller's experiment could be the first step towards understanding or it could be a step in the wrong direction. It could be that the environment he used was entirely wrong and while they continue to try to tweak that environment, they lose sight of other possibilities. So don't teach it yet, at least not until college. Then we can save ourselves the pain of arguing with the creationists and have more time to teach scientific principles that have been missing in classes.



Jeff M,

I have read those experiments, the most notable was a retooling of Miller-uley experiment that showed more amino acids created. There ahve been other methods used to obtain amino acids, but as far as I know, the general set-up of miller-uley has produced the most. Talkorigins is an ok site, but they overstate their case, most notably, the statistics article by Ian Musgrave was a travesty. I emailed him, for clarification on the many seeming errors in his article and have yet to see a response.
anonymous
2010-04-05 10:43:56 UTC
They share no link at all. One is based on faith. The Global warming deniers use facts, science and unaltered data to support their claims.


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