Question:
Alarmists: How exactly is the sea level going to rise alarmingly?
Ian
2012-07-14 11:57:55 UTC
I was told by several alarmists that I can't just look at historical records and actual evidence to predict that sea level will not rise alarmingly in the near future.

I'm just curious as to which scenario will lead to the alarming rise in sea level you predict?

Antarctica melting?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120621141353.htm

Greenland glaciers melting?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120621141353.htm

Arctic sea ice melting?
http://www.eo.ucar.edu/basics/cc_2_b.html

Increase groundwater usage?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/may/20/world-aquifers-rising-sea-levels



I know it's preposterous, but I'm using historical records and reality to make my prediction that the sea level won't rise alarmingly.

http://notrickszone.com/2012/04/26/klaus-ekhart-puls-sea-level-rise-is-slowing-down-theres-going-to-be-no-acceleration/

http://notrickszone.com/2012/07/13/german-survey-of-recent-scientific-literature-shows-no-signs-of-accelerated-sea-level-rise/


So even though I know I'll be proven correct but somehow still be "wrong" to alarmists because I'm "guessing", I'd still like to hear their theories on how the sea levels will start to rise alarmingly in the near future.

(And please keep your theories to the 'causes' of how sea level will rise alarmingly. Saying "Sea levels aren't rising at an alarming rate now....but they will be" does not address what you think the CAUSES will be.)
Sixteen answers:
?
2012-07-14 15:18:39 UTC
<


Thermal expansion and land based ice sheets melting. But you already knew that. Now go look up the physics behind Thermal Expansion and learn something for a change.



<>



Typical denier anti-science crap. Look up thermal expansion, particularly its effect on water, and you'll realize (unless you're a total dumb ***, that is) that water takes a bit of time to heat up and when it eventually does, it expands. The more it heats up, the more it expands. Couple that with more and more land-based ice melting due to increasing temperatures, and you've got a scientifically sound answer as to why sea levels do not rise in neat, easy-for-Ian-to-understand equal increments.



In science, you have to look at ALL the data and ALL the science, not just observations from the past alone.



Edit @Ian:



<>



I gave you BOTH you nitwit. I gave you a well-known, well observed and well understood physical phenomena which explains both issues you appear to be unable to grasp: WHY sea-levels will raise at an alarming rate and HOW.
anonymous
2016-05-18 06:31:20 UTC
You have it all wrong, Richie. The climate scientists are saying it's impossible to accurately predict sea level rise. To cover their butts, the models have the ocean rising anywhere from 0 cm to 1.3 m by 2100. And the rise will not be even world wide. Some areas will see more rise than others or nothing at all. One of the models will get it right, just like my Dad's old pocket watch that stopped back in 1982. It's right twice a day. Same with all those highly paid climatologists and their super computers.
Mr.357
2012-07-15 11:27:54 UTC
I don't really think the sea level will rise. The seas are huge and there is not that much ice that is not floating on the water(we all know that the melting of floating ice has no effect on the sea level). I live over 890 ft above sea level. I do have some signs "Sea Side Property For Sale", that I can put up if the sea level rises 870 ft or so.
?
2012-07-15 10:20:17 UTC
I think you are very confused regarding the meaning of 'alarming sea level rise'. I know that it's hard to imagine only 3mm/year to be worrisome, but consider that if you look beyond next week and to perhaps 2100, that rate *is* alarming because the rate is increasing. It's not sy-fy disaster movie alarming, but it's a real problem that will need to be dealt with and the longer we wait, the more expensive it's going to be.



BTW, your first 'additional details'...so very intellectual. I do however find it more honestly shows your mentality.



_
Lloyd J
2012-07-15 15:40:58 UTC
Even if the alarmists are right, we can easily compensate for ocean level rise by building large man-made lakes near rivers that routinely flood. This will increase habitat for birds as a beneficial side effect.
anonymous
2012-07-15 01:43:56 UTC
Ice + heat = melting ice







How could you know that you will be proven correct? And no, I do not know that I will be proven correct, even though you are the one who is arguing with scientists, so I like my odds of being correct better. But if there is even a 1 in 10,000 chance of serious sea level rise, do we really want to take that chance, just so Ian can force people to drive vehicles that cost more than what people pay on their mortgage to fuel and to have accidents in their pants every time toilets back up at nuclear power plants?



Sagebrush, aka Maxx







So, you are saying that all the peer reviewed science had nothing to do with it? And that regulations on NOX and SOX were based on his one comment?



Asker



<"How could you know that you will be proven correct?"







What do you think that scientists use? What do you think James Hansen and Michael Mann use?



Joseph, Wayne, Dookie, ******, hyrulequest21, Trevor, Golden One, Gas and Vampire.



If Ian responds to the above question by slandering James Hansen and Michael Mann, please, please, please, please, please report him. I am sick and tired of reporting such slander and not seeing such slanderous questions and answers deleted.
Trevor
2012-07-14 16:19:51 UTC
Collectively the average annual loss of ice from the Greenlandic and Antarctic ice-caps is about 770 billion tons per year. Dispersed across the 510 million square kilometres of oceans, this should cause the average sea-surface level to increase by 1.5mm per year. And indeed, this is the amount that real-world measurements show.



Coupled with this is the thermal expansion of the oceans. Water has the almost unique property of being densest at 4°C (i.e. not freezing point), in the polar regions where the oceans are warming this is causing thermal contraction but this is far outweighed by expansion in the rest of the world. The net effect is sea-levels are rising by 1.6mm per year. Again, something that can be both calculated on paper and observed in the real world.



Finally there’s a small contribution caused by isostatic or post-glacial rebound. This is adding a further 0.1mm a year to sea-levels. This value can be considered a constant (it’s changed little in thousands of years), glacial meltwater and thermal expansion are variables.



Collectively these three components are causing sea-levels to rise by 3.2mm per year. As is normal, this is not a consistent figure but is the long-term global trend. Some years it’s less, some year’s it’s more, in some parts of the world SSL is decreasing slightly, in others it’s rising 10 times as fast.



Also, as is the norm, these figures are based on overall averages and do take account of the fact that glacial mass balance is increasing in some parts of Greenland and Antarctica. You’ll often hear the deniers mention this but of course, what they don’t tell you is that these few places are the exception to the rule.



Given that equilibrium between oceans and atmosphere takes somewhere between 4,000 and 10,000 years to be achieved, we know that there is going to continue to be significant heat exchange far into the future; the net effect of the exchange being a warming of the oceans. Whilst the sea-surface layer is some 2.9°C warmer than the atmosphere, the exchange occurs due to the upwelling, overturning and general mixing of the colder sub-SSL water.



The latest Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment data suggest that recent estimates of sea-level rises have been underestimated and that the probable sea-level rise by the end of the century will be between 800mm and 1400mm; it had previously been estimated at between 190mm and 590mm. Other research provides different values with the modals being in the 500mm to 1000mm range.



The notion of catastrophic sea-level rises and New York being underwater in the near future are yet more examples of the moronic lies from the intellectually deficient and honesty bereft deniers. As with just about everything from the deniers, these claims belong in the bin. Yes, sea-levels are rising; no, we’re not going to be underwater in the future.



As for the melting of the Arctic sea-ice – it’s irrelevant because it’s floating and therefore already displacing it’s own mass of water.



- - - - - - -



RE: YOUR ADDED DETAILS



The Uni of Colorado don’t have GIA at 0.3mm a year, they use minus 0.3mm a year. And their calculations don’t show 2.8mm a year but 3.4mm a year, which after deducting for GIA gives 3.1mm a year, and since 2011 they’ve been using 3.2mm a year – exactly the same figure as mine.



You claim the figure is adjusted upward but you’re wrong once again, the top end figure is 3.6mm a year, bottom end is 2.8mm, 3.2mm is the mean.



As for the links – did you read them, I guess not. They’re talking about what might happen over the course of hundreds of years. For example (from 2nd link) “Such a hike in temperature could lead to a rise in sea levels of between 13 to 20ft (4 to 6 m) over hundreds of years as the ice sheets melt.” Let’s say 500 years, that means 1 metre per year; which ties in with the other links that mention figures of up to a metre in 100 years. All of which relate to the figures I gave in my original answer.



Let’s compare this to the deniers. Sagebrush for example claims that Manhattan was supposed to be under water by 1999. The only place he would have got such a notion from is fantasy land or a denier website (which is essentially the same thing). Of course, he can’t back up this claim, but that’s precisely what rational people have come to expect from the irrational deniers.



Here’s something to consider. The Thames Barrier was constructed to protect London from flooding, it’s basically a dam that can be raised into place to cut London off from the sea. In it’s first 10 years of operation (1982 to 1991) it had to be closed 10 times to protect London, in the last decade it’s needed to be closed 75 times. Why do you think this might be, if not for the fact that sea-levels are rising?

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Leisure/Long_Summary_of_Flood_Defence_Closures.pdf
anonymous
2012-07-14 19:40:20 UTC
Thanks Ian for another opportunity to point out denier lies, like your own sock puppet sagebush for example who lies about sea level rise predictions (the Hansen comment was a speculation on a doubling of CO2, not a prediction based on actual CO2 concentration).



Pliocene sediment records indicate there was a period of enhanced warming around 3 million years ago and that sea levels rose from 5-40m above what they are now. This was caused by ice melting from the east and west antarctic ice sheets and thermal expansion from warming water. http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eespteam/prism/products/Raymo_et_al_2009.pdf



Oh, but you want to know how it happened, right? Warm air causes ice to melt. Warm water also causes ice to melt. Warm water causes liquid H2O molecules to move faster as they absorb more energy and faster moving molecules take up more space, hence the liquid itself takes up more space.



So, there you have it. Deny away.



EDIT: @the golden one- that is a conclusion any reasonable person would make. But there are a few people here who are simply unreasonable.
The Golden One
2012-07-14 18:21:51 UTC
Listen to this Trevor guy, he seems to know a thing or two.



Best Wishes,

Golden
hyrulequest21
2012-07-14 15:29:29 UTC
I believe it is because the polar ice caps are melting, therefore, the overall mass of non frozen water in the Earth is increasing.
Hey Dook
2012-07-14 14:44:30 UTC
The "question" is unanswerable because it makes little sense. Climate scientists very rarely use lame vague words like "alarmingly." Such dipstick copy-cat buzz words are the overwhelming province of fossil fuel industry dupes.



Any one who wants to know in detail about global climate change and sea level rise can consult the authoritative IPCC reports or one of hundreds of reliable climate science textbooks; there is no need to waste time with Ian's copy-pasted links from anti-science denialist blogs.



http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/the-ipcc-sea-level-numbers/
?
2012-07-14 13:58:22 UTC
Alarming would be a combination of several of these all at once
Joseph
2012-07-14 13:36:40 UTC
Like many things in this life, "alarming" is a relative term, and depends upon one's personal perspective. If I happen to be a resident of the Maldives or Vanuatu, ANY rise in sea level would be alarming. Coastal dwellers whose infrastructure is at greater elevation will have a different definition of "alarming."



"Alarming" will also be interpreted differently depending upon funds available for relocation away from the shoreline, and the amount of time it will take to accomplish that relocation.



Personally, I'm more concerned about the rate of ice loss in the arctic and antarctic. Major changes in ocean currents may well occur in response to loss of ice cover.



Keep in mind that loss of arctic and antarctic ice IS happening. One can debate forever as to the proximate and ultimate cause(s). Wisdom dictates that action be taken before your debating platform sinks below the waves, even if you haven't agreed on the causes of climate change.
?
2012-07-14 14:19:17 UTC
Well according to James Hansen and Al Gore Manhattan was supposed to be under water by 1999.



According to them we just don't understand. Amongst themselves they call it voodoo or magic.



EDIT: GAS: James Hansen put this forth as a fact with no qualifications. At least that is what the law makers thought, who needlessly enacted tough emissions laws. Don't you think it is important how the audience thinks? It is an old PR game. Say something ambiguous to legislatures and if they get it wrong then good for you? That is the greenie game. You have just admitted it.
jerry
2012-07-14 15:07:36 UTC
can't you just admit that we are doomed

denier
anonymous
2012-07-14 12:43:50 UTC
The alarmists for AGW are full of crap. They can't even prove where this so called warming is coming from. Oh sure, the majority claim its CO2, but so few have credibility after being caught lying, falsifying data or having political money ties. One of the few with credibility (NOAA) claims its the water vapor in the stratosphere responsible for the heating and cooling trends.



Then you have the radical progressive pricks whom want to use AGW (happening or not) to blame Mankind for it and believes we should tax the hell out of everyone so they can have a slack job at a desk looking at graphs.



Hey DOOK, don't be so in a hurry to dismiss scientists role in this fiasco. These same losers were also the one's that predicted no more snow in America due to AGW. They also claimed that there would be more frequent and stronger hurricanes until that lie was debunked. In my day "SCIENCE" was a theory that was PROVEN. Not some politically wayward pricks pushing an agenda regarding something they can't even show is happening. This JUNK science is what created the whole AGW craze.



As for the "sea" levels, they've been claiming this crap for years, so where are all the sensationalized liberal media stories about people being forced out of thier beach community ? Or continuous flooding along the coastlines ? IT DOESN"T HAPPEN. But all these loser Al Gore a$$clowns need to do something. too bad they can't pick up a real hobby to may thier lives seem better than meaningless


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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