Question:
How would you improve this Skeptical Science advanced rebuttal to "climate sensitivity is low"?
Dana1981
2010-09-05 16:27:03 UTC
YA doesn't seem to be consistently publishing this question, so I'll ask it again with the link in the additional details.

My first two Skeptical Science advanced rebuttals have been published and now I'm working on the advanced rebuttal to "climate sensitivity is low", an adaptation of my climate sensitivity wiki combined with a previous Skeptical Science blog post on the subject. Once again I would appreciate constructive feedback. How would you improve it?
Seven answers:
Trevor
2010-09-05 19:09:50 UTC
Yahoo messing up with your question has proved to be very useful as there’s no way I would have got the comments from my previous answer and these additional comments into a single post. Your original question is still around, just not showing up on the list of open questions https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20100905144011AAe9Ezc&show=7#profile-info-20f3291b9320a302e9070bf55325531daa





Now had a read through your article. There’s a couple of technical points that could do with some attention but by and large the article is fine, I’ve also made some suggestions for the grammar and punctuation that you may wish to consider (hope you don’t mind)…





FROM: Some global warming 'skeptics’

TO: Some global warming skeptics



FROM: on the order of 1°C

TO: in the order of 1°C



FROM: and that therefore

TO: and therefore



FROM: a wide variety of methods

TO: a variety of methods



COMMENT: Planet Gore – is this the best source to link to?



FROM: Climate sensitivity describes how sensitive the global climate is to a radiative forcing (a change in the amount of energy reaching the Earth).

TO: Climate sensitivity describes how sensitive the global climate is to changes in the amount of energy reaching the Earth. It is generally expressed as the increase in the average global surface temperature that results from a doubling in the level of atmospheric carbon dioxide.

COMMENT: I think the description of CS needs to be expanded, when we talk about CS it’s normally more to do with a doubling of CO2 than just RF.



FROM: this will cause an energy imbalance (by trapping more radiation, causing more incoming than outgoing energy on Earth) enough to directly heat

TO: this will cause an energy imbalance by trapping more outgoing thermal radiation in the atmosphere, enough to directly heat

COMMENT: Distinguish which type of radiation. Also an energy imbalance won’t cause more incoming energy.



FROM: Climate sensitivity tells us the amount

TO: Climate sensitivity is the amount



COMMENT: The formula dT = λ*dF attempts to assign a specific value to the change in AGT, but this is a variable influenced by factors other than CS and RF. It may be better to change the formula to λ = dT÷dF. However, your formula will be adequate if you’re assuming a balanced state and a constant.



FROM: usually with units in Kelvin or degrees Celsius per Watts per square meter (°C/[W m-2]),

TO: usually expressed as °C(W/m²)

COMMENT: It’s awkward to express in words, I think if people are reading about CS they’ll know what °C W and m² are.



FROM: is different than the sensitivity to other radiative forcings

TO: differs from the sensitivity to other radiative forcings



FROM: like a change in solar irradiance

TO: such as a change in solar irradiance



COMMENT: “Climate sensitivity is a set value (approximately 0.8°C/[W m-2]),” This has me confused. CS isn’t ≈0.8°C Wm², I’m not sure what your value here relates to.



COMMENT: Possibly split the para… radiative forcing. [New Para] In other words



FROM: you're also arguing for a low climate sensitivity to solar irradiance, orbital changes, volcanic emissions, and everything else

TO: you're also arguing for a low climate sensitivity to other influences such as changes in solar irradiance, orbital variations and volcanic emissions.



FROM: the planet's average temperature changes on the order of 6°C (more like 8-10°C in the Antarctic)

TO: the planet's average temperature changes by 7°C to 10°C



FROM: The IPCC… put the possible range of climate sensitivity at

TO: The IPCC… summarised climate sensitivity as



FROM: climate sensitivity to a doubling of CO2 from anywhere between

TO: climate sensitivity from a doubling of CO2 to between



COMMENT: Possibly split the para… can be found here. [New Para] A study led by. And again… (Rahmstorf 2008). [New Para] Several studies



FROM: based on paleoclimate (historical climate change) data

TO: based on paleoclimatic (historical climate) data



FROM: has to be consistent with paleoclimate data.

TO: has to be consistent with paleoclimatic data.



COMMENT: The abbreviation Myr is an astronomical one, geologically it’s written myr (lowercase M). The norm is to use the abbreviation mya for million years ago, thus “about 55 Myr ago” becomes “about 55 mya”



FROM: may be higher than we currently believe, but it likely isn't lower.

TO: may well be higher than we currently believe.



FROM: Wigley et al

TO: Wigley et alia

COMMENT: One of the authors is female (Sarah Raper), thus it’s et alia (et al for the masculine, et aliae for the feminine, et alia for both or for neutral)



FROM: Forster et al. (2006) concluded as follows

TO: Forster and Gregory (2006) conclude as follows

COMMENT: Both are lead authors



FROM: Gregory et al

TO: Gregory et alia



REMOVE PARA: In 1988, NASA climate scientist…

REPLACE WITH: In 1988, NASA climate scientist Dr James Hansen produced a groundbreaking study, he produced a global climate model that calculated future warming based on three different CO2 emissions scenarios (A, B, and C).

COMMENT: Hyperlink the word study in the above edit



FROM: As he notes in Section 2 on page 2 of the study, Hansen's model assumed

TO: Now, after more than 20 years, we are able to review Hansen’s projections. His model assumed



FROM: with the total radiative forcing in reality being

TO: with the actual total radiative forcing being



COMMENT: Possibly split the para… emissions scenario. [New Para] The warming trend. And again… then scenario B [New Para] Therefore, what James Hansen’s



FROM: Therefore, what James Hansen's projections and assumptions and the measured real-world changes tell us

TO: Therefore, what Hansen's models and the real-world observations tell us



FROM: Annan et al

TO: Annan and Hargreaves



FROM: sensitivity is greater than 6°C

TO: sensitivity is in excess of than 6°C

COMMENT: Avoids duplicity of ‘greater than’



FROM: Annan concludes that

TO: Annan and Hargreaves concluded that



FROM: generally consistent with the range of

To: generally consistent within the range of



COMMENT: Re figure 4. The MIT study assigns a very high increase in levels of CO2 emissions that aren’t all that reflective of reality. The bulk of their projected increase is based on socio-economic reasons and therefore implies a higher per capita emission level. In fact, per-capita emissions have remained more or less level for about 20 years now, which contradicts the assumptions of the MIT report. The main driver of increased GHG emissions is population increase. With a population of 6.81 billion we’re increasing CO2 ppmv by 20 per decade at present. By 2050 the estimated pop will be 9.1bn and therefore likely to increase CO2 ppmv by 27 per decade. This is an ave increase of 23.5ppmv for each of the next 4 decades thus raising CO2 levels from the present 394 to 488ppmv. With a cumulative decadal increase of 1.4ppmv over and above the present 20 then it will be 2076 by the time CO2 reaches 580ppmv. CO2 has risen ≈78ppmv in the last 50 years, it would have to increase 266% to reach 580ppmv by 2050.



- - - - - - - - - -



A few minor points, otherwise an excellent article that clearly demonstrates that CS is closer to the 3°C mark than some of the unreasonably low figures that sometimes get mentioned. I’ve bookmarked the page and when I get round to sorting my bookmarks out (there’s thousands of them all jumbled together) then I’ll be sure to link to it in the future.



- - - - - - - - - - -



COMMENT: TO ANDY



Absorption Bands – d/dx has covered this perfectly.



Water Vapour – Definitely not doubled since c1850, not even close. The saturation fraction of water in air is 1% at 14°C (the average global temp in 1850), to have doubled the ave global temp would need to increase to 22°C. It hasn’t, it’s increased to 15°C.



Ice Ages – The temp fluctuations of 6°C to 10°C are consequent to the entering and exiting of ice-ages, an event that is caused by the variations in Earth’s orbital eccentricity or circularity around the Sun.
d/dx+d/dy+d/dz
2010-09-05 20:30:10 UTC
1. The climate sensitivity dT/dF is taken to be constant. If a power series expansion were done around the current state, ie dT/dF = Lambda + K1*T +K2*T^2 + ..., can it be shown that the higher order terms are vanishingly small?



2. is inconsistent with



The first statement appears to be a typo.



3. Is the Knutti and Hegerl paper citing all of the prior papers cited?



Edit @ Andy Both CO2 and H2O have hundreds of absorption lines. For a taste of the physics, see J. Phys. Chem. Lab 2005, 9, 54-63 or see the HITRAN database for a listing. The absorption cross section of each line matters more than the number of lines, so the premise of the comparison is false. The frequency of the line matters. The CO2 band near 700 cm-1 is near the center of the blackbody radiation (using the term loosely) from the earth whereas the H2O band near 1640 cm-1 is at the edge of the blackbody radiation curve. A line within the CO2 band with the same absorption cross section as a H2O line would have a greater radiative effect. In fact, the Q (center line) for CO2 has a larger absorption cross section than the corresponding H2O line. Note that the CO2 band near 2300 cm-1 and the H2O band near 3600 cm-1 do not have an appreciable radiative effect, despite having larger integrated absorption cross sections than the lower frequency bands. The second factor missed is that the altitude of the molecules matter when calculating radiation to space. H2O has a high concentration close to the surface, but a low concentration at high altitudes. The comparison of bulk concentrations is not valid. The spectra of outgoing radiation is not dominated by water vapor as your comparison of bulk concentrations would suggest.

http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/static/cahalan/Radiation/EarthRadVblackbody.html
2010-09-05 21:22:15 UTC
"A common misconception is that the climate sensitivity and temperature change in response to increasing CO2 is different than the sensitivity to other radiative forcings, like a change in solar irradiance. However, this is not the case. Climate sensitivity is a set value (approximately 0.8°C/[W m-2]),"



I am a fan of Skeptical Science and your own contributions to advanced rebuttals to contrarian arguments are brilliant. However, if my understanding of how solar forcing and greenhouse gas forcing work are correct, solar forcing heats upper layers of the atmosphere more than greenhouse gas forcing does. It would seem to me that this difference would mean that positive solar forcing would suppress cloud formation, at least more than positive greenhouse gas forcing. If my reasoning is correct, it would seem to me that solar forcing would have a larger positive feedback ratio than greenhouse forcing.
2010-09-06 07:01:04 UTC
All I need to know is that nature is full of "tipping points". Water has a "tipping point" at 0C and 100C. It melts and it boils and in between the response is kinda linear - specific heat capacity and thermal expansion - that kinda thing. Some people just seem to want to believe that everything the environment does is linear and that there are never any "tipping points". That belief just doesn't hold much water for me, if you'll pardon the pun!



Don't know if that really answers your question but I felt it was worth repeating!
Frst Grade Rocks! Ω
2010-09-06 13:38:37 UTC
It is an excellent article.



I did a thorough proof reading of it looking mainly at ways to improve readability. Although I do suggest an expanded introductory discussion on radiative forcing, climate sensitivity and feedback loops to help prepare the reader for the rest of the article.



Here is my markup:



http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Remo_Aviron/Dana2_Page_1.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Remo_Aviron/Dana2_Page_2.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Remo_Aviron/Dana2_Page_3.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Remo_Aviron/Dana2_Page_4.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Remo_Aviron/Dana2_Page_5.jpg



Anyhow, really good work.



*************

@Trevor wrote: "Avoids duplicity of ‘greater than’ ". lol, never knew that 'greater than' could be duplicitous.



(I made the same error once)
andy
2010-09-05 20:26:32 UTC
How about discussing how water vapor absorbs 11 wave lengths versus 2 wave lengths for CO2. Water vapor has doubled since around 1850 and makes up between 1 to 2% of the atmosphere versus the what .0034% for CO2 and even less then that for the other green house gases.



It seems that according to your blog, climate scientists can't really explain how the temperature can fluctuate 6 to 10 °C from the coldest of an Ice Age to the warmest in between temperature.



That just makes climate science even more skeptical since these same scientists can't explain how the temperature changed in the past so they create unproven theories that they pass off as good science.
tim k
2010-09-05 16:47:17 UTC
thanks i learnt things


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