Question:
Is a carbon tax all that is left that can be done?
Author Unknown
2009-01-02 23:28:12 UTC
In your opinion is a carbon tax the only way left to reduce the threat of global warming

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/hansen-calls-for-carbon-tax-to-drop-co2-below-todays-levels-5398.html

And for Canadians
http://www.thecoast.ca/Blog-3828.113118-4879.113118_Hansen_Dion_was_right.html

(Don't blame me, I voted Liberal)
Fifteen answers:
d/dx+d/dy+d/dz
2009-01-03 08:18:09 UTC
A carbon tax is one of the best methods to send market signals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The government of Manitoba has a policy of reducing coal consumption to zero. This caused the major coal consumers to seek alternatives. My company converted a local waste stream into biofuel. As a consequence of the Manitoba plan, the demand for my company's product exceeds supply. The Dion plan would also benefit my company directly. Unfortunately Dion linked the carbon tax to increased social spending. If the stated goal of reducing carbon emissions were accomplished under the Dion plan, the tax revenues to pay for the increased social spending would decline. Liberals are not known for cutting social spending when revenues decline. Bad policy. If Dion had instead proposed to use the carbon tax revenue to pay down the national debt, he might have had my vote. The Liberal demand for a bailout of the auto industry is inconsistent with their goal of reducing carbon emissions. If the big 3 fail, the manufacturing capacity will be taken over by more efficient management that will produce the fuel efficient cars the market demands.
mcglothlin
2016-11-08 09:34:38 UTC
Carbon taxes in us of a of america will do no longer something to end pollutants. all people different than some idealistic Libs and environmentalists understand those "carbon taxes" would be filtered directly to Al Gore, the international warming fanatic. companies charged carbon taxes in the rustic, will purely strengthen expenses and bypass them on, to the buyer. a similar suggestion in us of a of america is being viewed. we are able to be charged as much as $a million,4 hundred money extra desirable for power yet we are able to be reimbursed that money at tax time. the place is this money going to come back from? and how lots money would be wasted in decding who gets the money? Then why undertaking with it in any respect?
Richard E
2009-01-03 03:25:36 UTC
Ofcourse not. There are plenty of policy tools to decrease our GHG emissions. Cap and trade for instance, legally setting product standards, improving urban design for closing energy cycles, product labels, etc.



@dumdum: you confuse cap and trade with taxes. In taxes, products are taxed for their contribution to GHG emissions. High taxes on petrol, low taxes on woollen socks. Greener variants of products will thus be relativily cheap, if they exist. The grand problem with climate change is that a lot of products are energy intensive, and there are often no real substitutes. A bicycle won't get you as far as a car. An electric car still devours energy.



So when you tax: you make GHG intensive products more expensive, hoping that people will then choose to buy less of them, or switch to other products. unfortunatly, all products cost energy, and so, a carbon tax will cause inflation. everything just becomes more expensive. Moreover, the tax does not cause a clear market signal for more efficient technologies. All industries, whether they can easily evade GHG emissions or whether they have hardly any options for emission reduction, are taxed equally. Those with the easiest options only have a moderate incentive to decrease their emissions. On top of that, a lot of the market wealth is funneled into government funds, and efficiently spending government money is very difficult. Cap and trade solves this problem. Those with easy mitigation efforts can make money of their eforts of minmizing emissions- in theory that is. A proper function market requires readily available knowledge on mitigation options, price developments of the emission permits and a authority that sells (not gives) the exact right amount of permits. This is what failed in europe. still, for large industries this can be an efficient solution, that welcomes innovation.



For conusmers, however, bookkeeping ones carbon emissions, implementing the latest in GHG saving technology, etc. is a few bridges to far. The transaction costs are too high. it would be too difficult. A carbon tax would be a the lesser evil, if it is burden-neutral: the tax revenue is kept constant. GHG intensive products are taxed more, GHG extensive products are taxed less. Small business: likewise.



But i also think governments should radically reform society. Take a look at an american city: it is entirely built for cars. not for people, but for cars. people have little choice but to drive a car. they live far away from tehir work, school, the mall etc. US urban design is a barrier to an energy efficient economy. Changing this requires more than market or tax solution. It requires vision and collaborative action.



@ bravozulu: Taxing socialist? What a load of crap. Socialist countries do not have taxes. There is only one employer: the state. They pay you, for your work ( only a little, ofcourse). There is a lot of bad to be said a bout socialism, but not that they tax the people. Get your facts straight.



What is it about climate change that makes everybody shout communism. Is there irrefutible evidence that the two are connected?
MEAMEAMEA
2009-01-03 07:48:41 UTC
Great answer, Richard E.

People who deny the human part in Global Warming are maybe responding to subconscious guilt, or just hate anyone criticising our ego-centred way of life, calling them "socialists"

I agree with you that cities are built for cars, not people.

In the future, maybe Shop-to-home deliveries will become the norm. As there is one van driving around instead of hundreds of cars, here is a possible energy-economy. So Internet may be an answer ready to come to fruition.

Governments can help by refunding taxes on energy efficient developments (homes, workplaces etc).

They could encourage factories to build homes nearby (go back to Paternalism?) Well, it worked, didn't it?

Regular bus routes could go to and from malls. Maybe web merchandising will take over from malls.

I think planet-caring will grow as young people learn from the mistakes of their parents' generation. At least they can rightly shrug off the guilt, so they won't get hang-ups about it, and try to deny GW.

Carbon tax isn't all that is left, education is still possible. The pollution of our atmosphere came from small amounts multiplied by great numbers, the only way to go back is then again to use small solutions in great numbers, i.e everyone doing their bit to help. People can be flagrantly egoistic, but they can also be sensible and altruistic when they see that it helps. (Think of how people respond generously to disasters).



To answer Richard E's remark, it doesn't matter if Global Warming is a myth, or a lie, we are still polluting the atmosphere. PCBs and other pollutants are there, microscopic by-products cause cancers and allergies, chemical effluents pollute the seas and freshwaters: our way of life has to change anyway, GW or not.
Darwinist
2009-01-03 07:16:23 UTC
I think Dumdum is right. Governments do seem keen to use 'green taxes' to raise revenue but then fail to provide alternatives that would make the taxes effective as a means of combating global warming.



I believe global warming is happening and we are responsible though...



I think we need a global consensus on this one, a massive move away from fossil fuels to renewables, possibly some form of carbon capture. Individual governments who do nothing else but impose taxes, will make no significant difference.
jeff m
2009-01-03 02:15:11 UTC
A carbon tax would be far simpler to administer than a Cap & trade plan, because there is far fewer producers of energy, than users. A carbon tax could be implemented by requiring producers to file another form, cap &trade would require someone to decide who has to pay, and how much - a large bureaucracy. Lots of opportunity for lobbying and litigation over exemptions. Only a crooked politician could love it.



A lot of objections would disappear, if the remedy was a carbon tax -everybody realizes that fossil fuels are a dwindling resource, and the govt is going to tax something anyway. A carbon tax would accomplish the same objective, of reducing fuel usage by making it more expensive. Far less micromanagement and politics.



Subsidies for alternate energy sources are another favorite with politicians, for the same reason -lobbyists. Just increase the cost of fossil fuels, and people will find every practical way to avoid the costs. Subsidies create monstrosities like the corn ethanol industry - impractical, but very able to lobby for continued subsidies. Where you gonna find an ethanol expert to dispute them?



Be wary of information from those seeking subsidies, or selling something.



Fear of CO2 is going to sell expensive (=wasteful) solutions:

Actually, it should be more like a BTU tax, a carbon tax would encourage people to burn all the natural gas first, and leave the coal for future generations. We have lots of coal, and the cheap electricity it can produce will make battery powered vehicles more practical, easing the transition away from oil. Natural gas could be saved for vehicles., if electricity was cheaper, more people would heat their homes with it.



Battery power is not practical in cold climates, and the inherent waste of converting electricity to chemical energy and back again is a major limit to efficiency, making EVs no more efficient than a nat gas IC engine. It takes 75 kwh to charge a teslas 53kwh battery. that equals a 1500watt heater for 50 hours. Waste on discharge similar.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Alternative-Energy-Solar-2461/2008/8/Economics-Charging-car-batteries.htm

Tesla's website claims ~90% efficiency "wall socket to wheel" "based on billibong auto show judges assesment"but they're car salesmen. Somebody goofed, giving out the actual number of kilowatts.



discounted "off peak" charging: electric companies would like to take exxon's place providing auto fuel. if a lot of electric cars were charging every night, how would that be off-peak? Don't expect discounts to continue, when everyone drives a tesla.
anonymous
2009-01-03 06:44:49 UTC
There was an interesting editorial on Grist this morning arguing exactly that, that carbon taxes are our best alternative to ineffective measures such as carbon credits and cap and trade systems: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2009/1/1/23367/28094
Dana1981
2009-01-03 10:30:11 UTC
Oh certainly not. We definitely need either a carbon tax or cap and trade system (which can work if it's run properly), or both. But there are many other steps that still need to be taken.



The easiest and cheapest and most effective is to increase energy efficiency. The easiest and most cost effective way to reduce our emissions is to do things like improving building insulation.

http://greenhome.huddler.com/forum/thread/958/mckinsey-2008-research-in-review-stabilizing-at-450-ppm-has-a-net-cost-near-zero



California's per capita energy consumption has remained essentially unchanged over the past 30 years (as the rest of the country's has continued to increase) due to energy efficiency measures, which have also created jobs, coincidentally.

http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/green-policies-in-california-created-15-million-jobs/



And managed this by doing things like promoting strong building standards.

http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/30/energy-efficiency-part-4-how-does-california-do-it-so-consistently-and-cost-effectively/



Making the economic cost of fossil fuels reflect their true cost (via a carbon tax or cap and trade system) is a critical step in addressing global warming, but there are many other steps that still need to be taken.
anonymous
2009-01-02 23:43:24 UTC
No I'm sorry but carbon taxes are a scam.



"The EU's Emission Trading Scheme - a key part of the UK Government's drive to combat climate change - began in 2005 and created a trade in carbon allowances.



It is essentially a permit to pollute.



Power generators received their allowances free of charge but were allowed to reflect the value of those in increased prices to customers, as if the companies had actually had to buy the allowances.



Energywatch believes this increased electricity bills by about 7% in 2005.



And according to one government estimate, that delivered windfall profits of up to £1.3bn to the generators in that year - higher than environmental campaigners had claimed last year.



However, so far the carbon scheme has brought no clear payback in terms of cutting emissions.



Provisional government figures from the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) suggest CO2 output in Britain actually went up, by 1.25% last year wiping out a slight drop of 0.01% in 2005. It is also reckoned that CO2 emissions across the EU also rose by between 1 and 1.5% over the last two years."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/file_on_4/6720119.stm

http://www.zimbio.com/US+Politics+and+Current+Events/articles/1231/Farmers+Poised+Fight+Proposed+Cow+Flatulence



"But a carbon tax isn’t a new idea. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden have had carbon taxes in place since the 1990s, but the tax has not led to large declines in emissions in most of these countries — in the case of Norway, emissions have actually increased by 43 percent per capita. An economist might say this is fine; as long as the cost of the environmental damage is being internalized, the tax is working — and emissions might have been even higher without the tax. But what environmentalist would be happy with a 43 percent increase in emissions?"



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/opinion/25prasad.html?_r=1
bravozulu
2009-01-03 02:01:20 UTC
It is the socialist solution and actually the reason for the propagation of the myth in the first place. It cools off and some still call for carbon taxes. Amazing.



What a shock about the liberal voting. I would have never guessed. You aren't to blame because you don't like capitalists?
Wood Smoke ~ Free2Bme!
2009-01-03 08:40:54 UTC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------





Issue 38

December 31, 2008





Dear Colleagues,





Carbon Credit Capital is pleased to send you its Marketracker, which provides an edited, bi-weekly snapshot of global climate change news.



Kind regards,



Olivia Fussell

President, Carbon Credit Capital





Carbon Offset Tracker







Green goal of 'carbon neutrality' hits limit



December 30, 2008



TEXAS- Computer giant Dell Inc. said this summer that it has become "carbon neutral." The amount of emissions Dell has committed to neutralize is known in the environmental industry as the company's "carbon footprint." Dell counts the emissions produced by its boilers and company-owned cars, its buildings' electricity use, and its employees' business air travel. In fact, that's only a small fraction of all the emissions associated with Dell. The footprint doesn't include the oil used by Dell's suppliers to make its computer parts, the diesel and jet fuel used to ship those computers around the world, or the coal-fired electricity used to run them. Dell's announcement that it had achieved carbon neutrality didn't go into these details. But in an interview, Dell officials estimate that the emissions produced by its suppliers and consumers each amount to about 10 times the footprint Dell has defined for itself. Dell is claiming carbon neutrality mostly by purchasing environmental "credits." The bulk of these are composed of so-called renewable-energy certificates, or RECs, from wind-power projects in the U.S.







Wall Street Journal





Investment Tracker





From greed to green: Investing in the future



December 30, 2008



ENGLAND- Green isn't usually thought of as being good for business. But a complex mix of push and pull factors are making environmental business practices increasingly attractive to investors. But apart from buying shares in wind turbines and solar panel manufacturers, what are the emerging investment opportunities? Professor Stuart Hazeldene, professor of geology at the University of Edinburgh, believes carbon-capture technology could offer bold -- and wealthy -- investors, like oil companies, a very good return over the long term. Another investment opportunity that advocates argue can help save the planet while keeping one eye on the bottom line is the nascent market for monetizing the landscape itself. "Ecosystem services are the services we as a society need to survive: fisheries, timber, agriculture," says Annelisa Grigg, director of environmental markets at Fauna and Flora International. Already companies are investing in ecosystems, either as carbon offsets or because their productivity depends on them. Vivian Moses, visiting professor of biology at University College of London, believes that genetically modified foods are the only way for humanity to keep feeding itself without turning the globe's remaining wild places into farmland. He also believes they offer excellent investment opportunities.







CNN.com





Transportation Tracker







NZ airline flies jetliner partly run on biofuel



December 30, 2008



NEW ZEALAND- Looking to reduce its carbon footprint and cut its fuel bill, Air New Zealand on Tuesday tested a passenger jet that was powered partially with oil from a plum-sized fruit known as jatropha. Air New Zealand said the two-hour flight from Auckland International Airport was the first to use what are known as second generation biofuels to power an airplane. Second generation biofuels typically use a wider range of plants and release fewer emissions than traditional biofuels like ethanol. One engine of the Boeing 747-400 airplane was power
BB
2009-01-03 03:21:47 UTC
Makes as much sense as an 'asteroid tax'.



There is no credible scientific evidence supporting the notion of catastrophic man-made climate change..... I repeat.... NONE!
tholeeder
2009-01-03 22:24:30 UTC
who would pay it? coal power plants are the main contributor. will you go without power?
Steve P
2009-01-03 03:12:13 UTC
There is also nuclear energy.
anonymous
2009-01-03 01:56:20 UTC
YES, FOR LIBERALS THROWING MONEY AT SOMETHING ALWAYS FIXES IT, MONEY ALWAYS CONTROLS THE WEATHER, LETS DO IT.


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