Question:
How much will Obama's war on coal cost?
Kano
2013-06-30 21:12:55 UTC
I mean it's bound to cost billions and drive up electricity prices, and what will you get for it, Chris Hope an ardent climate alarmist has worked it out, if they can get CO2 back to 1983 levels (highly unlikely) and keep them there, the climate will cool by 0.02 degrees C by the year 2100.
http://www.chrishopepolicy.com/2013/06/how-much-will-the-world-benefit-from-obamas-climate-plan/
Eight answers:
?
2013-07-01 01:18:23 UTC
It must be that CR is related to Hank Johnson. Maybe it really is that your island will tip over.



Even before Obama was elected, he stated in San Francisco that he would increase the cost of permits and coal itself that it would drive coal users into bankruptcy. That is his intention and it is not good for us peons. How much? I'm afraid too much.
Trevor
2013-07-01 12:17:03 UTC
There’s three main sides to your question. There’s the cost in terms of dollars, the costs in terms of jobs and the cost to the environment.



The dollar cost of coal is very high, it’s the third most expensive form of electricity generation, surpassed only by solar photovoltaic and solar thermal. Purely from an economical perspective, it makes sense to switch to almost anything but coal. Advanced coal with CCS costs $141 per megawatt hour, advanced gas costs $66. Even using the cheapest form of basic coal with no carbon capture ($100/MWh) is more expensive than wind ($97/MWh) or hydro power ($90/MWh).



Another thing to remember is that the fossil-fuel industry receives massive subsidies. Quite how much is hard to determine, different sources provide figures that vary between $10 billion and $52 billion per year.



In terms of job losses, this is a genuine issue. As a fuel source coal is labour intensive, more people are required to extract and process coal to produce each unit of power than almost all other power sources. Switching from coal to other fuels will cost jobs.



Here in the UK the coal mining industry was decimated back in the 1980’s – not because of climate change but for political and economical reasons. 30 years later and the towns and villages that relied on the coal industry are still recovering. You can read more about this defining event here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_%281984%E2%80%931985%29



The environmental costs of climate change can be viewed as both an economical impact and the effect on the planet and species upon it.



Sir Nicholas Stern headed the most thorough investigation into the capital costs of climate change (the Stern Review). This calculated that current losses were $600 billion per year and were likely to rise to $2 trillion per year.



The World Health Organisation conducted extensive research and worked out that in 2000 there were 150,000 deaths annually as a result of climate change and that the figure would likely double by 2030.



Power generation is the largest single contributor to climate change and coal is the most widely used fuel.



A move away from coal will reduce generating costs significantly, it will help ensure energy stability and independence, will reduce the cost of fuel subsidies, will improve people’s health and will reduce the impact on the environment; but it will cost jobs. The savings made could create many new jobs, but history shows that this rarely happens and the money gets swallowed up in other areas of government expenditure.



At the end of the day it’s a balancing act with savings and the environment on one side and income and job security on the other. Which side you come down on is probably going to be determined by how each individual would be affected.



PS – You might want to check out the number of extreme weather events. You’re saying they’re no more common now than they were when there was less CO2. In fact, there’s been a massive increase overall. The number of heatwaves has doubled, their intensity has tripled, the death-toll from heatwaves has risen by 600 to 800%. Flood events have increased fivefold since 1950 and the number of droughts has tripled. Since 2000, for every one cold weather record there are 17 hot weather records that are being broken.



The frequency and intensity of storms has increased globally but there is evidence to suggest that storm activity follows a 60 year cycle, the peak of which we recently passed. This makes it hard to say what impact, if any, global warming has had / is having on storm activity.
JC
2013-07-01 09:42:11 UTC
I personally think reduction of coal use will have a net positive effect on the economy by developing new technologies. It should have a collective and individual benefit as well; collective because the infrastructure has to be upgraded to meet existing and growing demand for power regardless of the source and with the adoption of smart technologies like automated on demand sourcing and alternatives-including natural gas, despite the shortcomings-will lessen our reliance on coal and the myriad of environmental issues it presents. Individual as solar (and wind, to a lesser degree) will allow individuals to go 'off the grid' and produce power themselves-or even produce more power than they need, stay on the grid, and sell it back to the utility companies.



I'm not sure how much these developments will benefit me personally since I am older at this point and I am predicting another 20-25 years for the application of all of this new technology to become economically practical, but I think it is a good investment. Obviously there are people who disagree with that opinion as they are thinking shorter term. Right at the moment, with electricity and heat bills very high in my area and pump gas prices hovering around $3.50 a gallon, I would love to have a solar array that would meet most of my power needs and charge an electric car in my garage, but the up front costs are a little more than I want to assume at the moment vs. the amortization period. If I could do solar and an electric car for $50,000.00 right now and have a little more reliability as well as a satisfactory range on the car there would be guys working on my roof doing the install as soon as it is light. My retirement home is going to be equipped with solar and I will probably buy an electric hybrid in a few years, but I don't see retrofitting my existing home...I can't figure out why there is so much resistance to the development of alternatives to coal and oil other than the political opposition's ideological agenda. And there is a lot of history and many examples to suggest that in recent years, the polarization of the political parties here in the U.S. at least has lead to a LOT of opposition just because ideas are 'owned' by the other party, particularly when the 'other' party is in power. Of course, after the late sixties and early seventies here in the United States, the Republican Party did an about face on the environmental protections it had supported since the Theodore Roosevelt Administration in the early part of the 20th Century...heck, the Environmental Protection Agency was started during the Richard Nixon Administration, for goodness sake.



If diminishing our use of coal (and oil) ends up benefitting the climate and stabilizing it as far as mankind's influence, great. I'm all for that. But I think the political posturing over climate change is harming and delaying the development of alternatives that would have much greater benefits shorter term and I believe that is a mistake. Perhaps the liberal contingent has put too much emphasis on climate change as the impetus and made it a target of conservatives-I suspect that is at the root of it as climate change is a good target due to the uncertainties. But I also believe that in time to come we'll be going well, alternative energy was a very worthwhile goal and it panned out very well...we should have done it years ago and could have except for the fight over climate change, and the people who blocked development of alternative energy were short-sighted and ideologically driven, which ultimately cost us and caused more harm than necessary, both economically and environmentally. If this is the case, it will be interesting to see how the opposition tries to spin that. I hope I am around to see it, I might start watching the news on TV every night again if that happens.
flossie
2013-07-01 13:43:54 UTC
Nada, because he won't do anything meaningful,, no USA president will introduce measures that would bankrupt his country and reduce it back to the Stone Age, which is where the present policies of the UK government are leading, with its stated intention of shutting down 80% of British industry, see my question regarding the fact that the greenies have done what International Socialism couldn't. Some may say they are one and the same, I wouldn't disagree.

EDIT @ Trevor: Much as I admire you and your answers, I feel you are being a little economical with the truth. Stern didn't say " current losses were $600 billion per year and were likely to rise to $2 trillion per year." He said this was a potential for the future.



Your "The World Health Organisation conducted extensive research and worked out that in 2000 there were 150,000 deaths annually as a result of climate change and that the figure would likely double by 2030."- covered by my questions of Where, who, when as applied to deaths caused by climate change, a fabrication (not by you I hasten to add).



Your: The dollar cost of coal is very high, it’s the third most expensive form of electricity generation, surpassed only by solar photovoltaic and solar thermal. Purely from an economical perspective, it makes sense to switch to almost anything but coal" is quite frankly nonsense, electricity produced by wind turbines in monstrously more expensive, so much so that Germany is ditching the idea.



Trevor, we both know that if India, Brazil and China go ahead with their industrial build-up any savings anywhere, even by a polluting behemoth like the USA will make no difference.

As I said, the leader of the USA will never bankrupt the country in the name of an as yet unproven theory, no matter whet rhetoric he uses in his speeches.
Jeff Engr
2013-07-01 17:42:00 UTC
Bad question! Foul! Foul I say!



Nothing costs more than the cost of inaciton. You don't care about our children. You are too selfish. You eat children. (oops last one may be too far... but if they listen) Do you BBQ them too?



Anyone capable of 5th grade math understands how to figure out this answer. The price is very high and will be borne by ALL US industry and people. The US is too productive and our people are too industrious. They can not improve living conditions in the thrid world and Africa if we are able to remain so competitive within the US. At least many of the leftist elite believe this.
2013-07-01 04:57:48 UTC
Like all anti-nuke claims, claims that nuclear power is expensive are exagerated. Up until now, comercial nuclear power plants have cost billions of dollars to build,



I thought that you lived in the Phillipines. Why would you care about power bills paid by Americans? You should be more concerned with the effect of sea level rise on the Phillipines.







Carbon dioxide levels won't go back to 1983 levels by the year 3100, never mind 2100. The real question is whether by 2100, carbon dioxide is 500ppm, resulting in 1-2 degrees C of warming or 1000ppm, resulting in 3-6.5 degrees C of warming.







Obasma does not run the World Bank.







Unless you live more than 70 metres above sea level,you don't know that.
virtualguy92107
2013-07-01 14:57:11 UTC
A drop of .02C seems to me to be a very desirable thing compared to the 2-4C rise we'll be getting under "business as usual".



Nevermind pollution problems, coal costs more to produce and transport than either natural gas or petroleum. Powerplants to use coal are cheaper to build than natural gas only if they have no pollution controls, they still cost more to operate than natural gas. Keeping coal alive will mean gerrymandering regulations to disguise those costs. The "war" on coal consists of not taxing the rest of the economy to keep 19th century tech alive.
pegminer
2013-07-01 05:32:57 UTC
Your own link estimates a $5 trillion dollars saving, so the "billions" you talk about sounds like a pretty good deal.



EDIT: You give no evidence at all for your additional details, and you seem to be disputing your own link. If you don't believe what your link says, why did you link to it?



Besides, you seem to fail to understand that extreme weather is not the only cost of climate change. Where I live (California) a warmer climate would cost at least tens of billions of dollars and probably hundreds of billions of dollars to pay for changes in the water infrastructure--EVEN IF THE SAME AMOUNT OF LIQUID EQUIVALENT PRECIPITATION FELL (which it probably wouldn't).


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